Great writing advice from great teachers
Our pal Patrick recently attended a writing conference with my favorite writing/business of writing teachers ever, Dean Wesley Smith and Kristine Kathryn Rusch. Also making appearances were best-selling author Stuart Woods and Lori Foster.
Read Patrick’s two posts on the conference. There is some excellent, excellent writing advice in there.
Technorati Tags: Dean Wesley Smith, Kristine Kathryn Rusch, Stuart Woods, Lori Foster, Writing, Publishing, Writers, Writing Advice, Writers Conferences, Writing Conferences
And some opinions by me.
I tried to post this on patrick’s blog and was denied:
I call BS. Sorry, but yeah, i *do* come from a background of newspaper writing — worked for a newspaper for several years, and I turned in clean copy to deadline and I rewrite more now with every book I’ve written.
So two possibilities: I’m either getting worse, or I’m going deeper with my books and finding even better ways to discover my story. Which do you think is more likely?
Third option: Different stories have different needs, and it’s damaging to say otherwise.
that having been said, I do believe in not polishing turds.
PS: Dean Koontz rewrites, too.
And Stephen King. In fact, in his book On Writing, he credits his editing training to a journalism teacher.
And of course, there’s that old banger/swooper mythology of Vonnegut’s.
What is really upsetting, I think, is the idea that “rewriting” involves making something “grammatically correct.” Wasn’t it Hemingway who said that Writing was rewriting? He was a journalist, too.
Hm… I’d not deny you, intentionally.
I don’t think it’s an absolute. Different writers have different styles. I think that advice is to get newer writers to learn their own process.
Stuart Woods mentioned his friend, Pat Conroy, and told a anecdote of a 1200 PAGE novel that Pat had turned into his editor. Stuart said he ran into the editor and asked about it and the editor said, Well, there’s a wonderful 800 page novel in there.
There’s definitely more than one way to write a book.
Incidentally, Diana, you were one of the people I was thinking with that background. I’m pretty sure you mentioned that your style was to edit as you go and that you don’t typically spend a lot of time after the ‘first draft’.
Are you saying you’re really going in an line-editing yourself heavily now?
Or are you saying that the plotting in the unicorn novel is more challenging to you than SSG? Could be it’s taking you back more because you’re using a newer writing muscle.(Just speculating)
And some(plenty, I’m sure) people truly have the skill to go back and edit themselves without pulling their voice out or what not. I mentioned Jenny Crusie. It works for her.
And people DO find trusted readers who are capable of giving correct advice.
Dean and Kris edit each other to some degree. Both are VERY capable editors. And they don’t always take all the advice they give each other.
Really, I don’t like putting up writing advice like that, because – Space Lord aside, uhhh, haven’t got much to back it up.
I would say that this advice is more geared toward the unpublished writer who can’t get out of their own way.
like any advice, filter it through your own BS meter.
re: BS meter
I was talking with Dean and Kris when Kris said “You know we aren’t always 100% right”
Me – “I know.”
Kris – “You’re supposed to say ‘Yes you are!’”
Me – “Well, you’re 100% right for you!”
Kris – “Exactly.”
Really, the advice is don’t polish a turd. That’s all.
The manuscript is not the story. It’s just the words you currently have. Tossing the MS and starting again, whether the whole or part of it, is NOT what is being advised against.
That’s what is being suggested.
Kris and Dean try to qualify the difference between ‘re-writing’ and ‘re-drafting’.
Tossing a scene because it is in the wrong POV and re-drafting it is not what is being called re-writing – in this usage of the expression. Searching and slaving over a manuscript for ‘the perfect word’ is.
See, now I’m wishing I hadn’t posted that.
Btw – wish I could take this sentence back.
Could be it’s taking you back more because you’re using a newer writing muscle.(Just speculating)
It’s not saying what I was meaning/thinking.
And Stephen King once said
“3. Be self-critical
If you haven’t marked up your manuscript a lot, you did a lazy job. Only God gets things right the first time. Don’t be a slob.”
I know.
I was trying to get to the deeper meaning of the expression, which is Don’t polish a turd. The MS is not the STORY. The STORY may be excellent and the MS a turd.
Patrick, I still like the advice, and I stand by liking the advice. It works for me.
But Diana brings up a most important point: Not all advice is for every single person. We all have to work out what works for US. It’s why I hate writers’ workshops where the teacher says, “You have to do it this way.” Bull** is right!
But obviously Kris and Dean’s methods speak to me. They are the ones who pulled me out of my cycle of endless rewrites and helped me go on to write my second novel, which then led to all the ones after that. For which I will always be grateful.
But if their advice doesn’t speak to you–or, in D’s case, actually ticks you off–then fully ignore it and go find out what works for you.
There are no rules. We get to make up our own rules.
And Patrick, I love most of all Lori Foster’s point about enjoying ourselves. That IS a requirement, as far as I’m concerned. I’m not interested in the attitude that we sit down and open a vein. Who’d want to do that for a living year after year? If I wanted that kind of a life, I’d still be a lawyer.
And Patrick and Diana? I love this discussion. Thank you.
For what it’s worth, I think when Dean and Kris said “Don’t rewrite,” it was for shock value. I did not hear the full workshop, but they also alluded to it during the keynote. It’s how people interpret that statement that is in question.
In a conversation following, I mentioned that I WAS rewriting because my novel required it.
“Nope,” said Kris. “You shouldn’t do that.”
“Yes, I should,” I responded, “because it doesn’t work the way it is.”
“Then you should throw it out and start over,” she said.
And pretty much she was right about that…and that is what I am doing with the whole last half. I call it revising. I think they call it something else.
Then there are the beginning writers who DON’T write well the first time and will take Dean and Kris literally… heard a discussion about one such person in a crit group who writes very disconnectedly, but refuses to listen to his crit partners. NOW he has an excuse not to make necessary changes… Dean said “write it once and mail it.”
Judy, thanks for your additional report and thoughts. Did you guys record any of the sessions? I’d love to buy a CD or tape, if you have one.
Incidentally, Diana, you were one of the people I was thinking with that background. I’m pretty sure you mentioned that your style was to edit as you go and that you don’t typically spend a lot of time after the ‘first draft’.
Yep. It was. Style changes.
Are you saying you’re really going in an line-editing yourself heavily now?
Not just line editing. Everything. Changing major plot threads, changing characters, cutting things, switching things.
Perhaps once you grow more used to things you change under editorial direction, it makes you look at your book in a whole new light.
Or are you saying that the plotting in the unicorn novel is more challenging to you than SSG? Could be it’s taking you back more because you’re using a newer writing muscle.(Just speculating)
No, because it’s not just the unicorn book. I changed quite a bit of ROSB, as well.
Though I suppose if you are casting this all as choices a writer makes herself versus edits suggested by the editor, then none of it applies. However, I think that self-imposed massive editing, as opposed to tinkering, is a valuable skill to learn. I’ve certainly changed more than my editor requested once I really got in there and started revising.
Thanks for the inside peek, Diana! I love hearing how other writers write.
Perhaps once you grow more used to things you change under editorial direction, it makes you look at your book in a whole new light.
I would think. It’s really a different skill and that’s part of the point.
Gah!!! Got to go get on a plane again. I’ll be back later…
Such an interesting discussion! Yes, I agree that all writers have to find the advic that works for them. For me, I think there’s a balance. I think that it’s really important to edit and revise anything before submitting it — especially for many newer writers (sorry, but I find that a lot of new writers feel like they can time “the end,” run spell check, and submit and that’s all it takes — that’s certainly what I did with my first novel
Whether you do this editing as you go along or at the end, whatever.
However — and I think this is key — at a certain point you have to let go and step back from the book. You have to stop relying on tons of people to tell you what to do with it (though having an outside reader can really point out trees when you’ve only seen forest and vice versa). I know a lot of writers who rewrite, rewrite, rewrite the same novel for years. The thing is, once you sell you’re pretty much going to have to churn out a book a year so you might as well start working on that pace now. If the book isn’t working after a rewrite, then maybe that book isn’t going to work and you need to set it aside.
As for me, since I don’t outline I figure out a lot of the plot as I go along which means having to go back and retroactively change things to keep up with plot points later in the book. So revising is pretty important for me!
Sorry, Robin…we did not record any of our sessions…think that is still a little beyond our capabilities and/or budget. Good thought, though, for the future…
Oh, well, Judy–maybe next time.
Carrie, some really good suggestions there. Thank you! I agree that if a book isn’t working you need to step away from it–it’s not working for a reason, and if you can’t see it yet, you need to take a break and go work on something else. Even if the something else is watching Project Runway.
Yay conversation and my work day is sort of over.
Diana, thanks for the insight.
I’m sort of processing this. I don’t think Stuart Woods was lying, but I’m thinking this. Stuart is on book 38 or so, around book 12 was his break out into bestseller. Now he’s 26 books more into that bestseller big novel process, it’s not unrealistic to think that he doesn’t need to edit, because he has it down.
By comparison, each of your books are getting ‘bigger’ in depth and scope, you’re learning. It makes sense that you would be revising. You’re learning! But by the same token, what you have is probably publishable.
They do say in the advice that it is for new writers who aren’t selling, saying that they shouldn’t revise, because they have no business revising because they are too new at writing to know if their work is anygood. I think that’s good advice for many because you’ll learn more writing more stories not staying on the same.
But then how do you explain Dean Koontz?
The pertinent quote:
“I am obsessive about the revision of each page–the word fussbudget is embarrassingly apt when I am brooding over whether to use a comma or a semicolon.”
And:
” Although the book was done, I felt that something was wrong with Chapter 63. The action worked, the characters were in character, the mood was sustained…but something felt wrong with it, some fine point of the villain’s motivation. Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, I worked 12-hour days, trying to identify the source of my doubt, but couldn’t specify it to my satisfaction.
Nothing like this had ever happened to me. Previously, my worst struggles with a story had come in the first two-thirds, and the final third had been, if not a sweet swift toboggan run, at least a sleigh ride.
Sunday, I got up at 6:00 and set to work, revising, looking for the thorn I could feel but couldn’t see–and ended up working 22 hours, eating at my desk, before tumbling to the problem at 4:00 a.m. Monday morning. “Eureka!” I cried, but I was so weary and my voice was so weak that my shout of jubilation came out as a squeak.
The revisions required to Chapter 63 were minor…”
writers – telling lies for fun and profit.
When you can show me what he changed and we can debate whether or not he wasted his time on that…if he indeed did do that…
Yes. Now I’m just poking at you for fun. And yes, I think Koontz is a freak.
>
And this is what Kris said SHE does… but she does not call it revising; she calls it ‘notes to add necessary details’ or something like that…so there is a little bit of semantics going on here…is she doing one thing and just calling it something else?
That’s a good point, Judy. I mean, when you start reducing everything to “this is only good advice for people in a certain subset” and “well, I dont’ call THAT revision/editing/what-have-you…” then maybe this is just something that’s impossible to understand unless you’ve taken the workshop Robin and pat are describing.
What I know is that the good advice I had when I was a newbie writer is STILL good advice now, and I gather will be good advice for ever. “Love the book, not the scene.” “Leave out the parts people skip.” Etc.
“Don’t polish a turd except to editorial request”
I don’t know. It doesn’t have the same ring to it.
The actual presentation is more about staying in the creative state of mind rather than editorial.
It’s good advice if you are stuck in endless re-writes.
Trust the sub-conscious writer in you, not the conscious editor.
Get your internal editor out of the way.
It’s good at all levels. You could easily find that this additional editing ISN’T making for better books for you.(I doubt it, but it could happen.)
Certainly an experienced writer can THINK they have learned more about writing/story telling and over-edit themselves and still need the advice. This is not to say ALL writers need that.
Trust your sub-conscious creativity.
Use the Force, Luke.
That advice ALWAYS applies.